KevinAlvy's Training Log

181 would be a good spot for me, I think. I have a feeling I will be down to damn near 170 by the time I get back next summer, which means I will have to work my ass off just to get back to my normal strength levels.

I think that Kevin at 198 and me at 181 would give this team potential to do some srs damage. An elite total is only 1396 at 181, and a ~1500 total would get me close to being ranked, IIRC.

Well, whatever weight class you're in range of cutting to at ~10% bodyfat would be ideal. If that's 198, then that's the best weight class for you.

If you are ever able to do so, I'd recommend springing for a full body composition analysis. It'll give you a definitive understanding of your lean body mass, so you'll know automatically what weight class would be the correct one for you. My belief, based on your height, is that 181 might be best, but that's only a belief, and it's only based on what I see from other lifters.

You're right--you'd lose some in leveraging at 181, but your numbers, relatively speaking, might be better. To be world-class at 220, you probably need a 1900+ lb. total at this point, but that number drops to 1750 lbs. at 198, and even further, to about 1600, at 181. Sometimes, the sacrifice is worth the divisional standing, unless your goal is to put up the absolute biggest numbers possible.

Ultimately, you can be really successful in whichever weight class you choose. I know this is a sensitive issue, so I don't mean any offense. Coan of course is an exception, but remember that he started as a really lean 165-lb. lifter and finished as high as the 275-lb. class; he's hardly a good example.

You're doing the right thing by losing the weight slowly. You'll certainly minimize the damage that way. Guys like you and Chris take this very seriously, and you deserve to achieve some recognition in this sport by putting up incredible numbers.

Just to note, I take no offense, and this kind of stuff does not hurt my feelings. I was 145 like yourself as a sophmore in high school and went as high as 245 my sophmore year in college, but intentionally.

When I was 245 I could hardly deadlift 500, but I could squat 585. I know the advantages and levers that improve with losing weight.

Ideally I think I'll come down to about 213 walking weight, cut down to 198 for competition, and immediately get back up to walking weight. When I can start hook gripping again I think my lockout will come back a little. Trial and error is really the only effective way to test this though. I've squatted best, deadlifted best, and benched best at 225. I am willing to give 198 (215 lbs walking) a ride this spring/summer just to see though.

I am not really concerned with being the top of my weight class. When I think about maximizing my levers I mean in terms of coefficient. So even though 198 and 181 is relatively weaker I wouldn't consider myself a better powerlifter if I am ranked better, but my coefficient is worse. Trial and error is really the only effective way to test this though.

Also just to clarify I consider 215 with 15 lbs more fat (aka 17.5% BF) to be much more competitive than 200 with (10% BF or 7.5% less bf). Assuming they both weigh in at 198*

Your coefficient and your ranking will be tied closely together; chances are, your ranking will be highest wherever your coefficient is highest. So, whether you value one or the other, finding the ideal weight class will probably result in both being as high as possible. That's just how it goes.

Now, there are some weight classes that are more competitive than others--a 500 Wilks at 220 might rank a little lower than a 490 Wilks at 198--but the two are going to run parallel with one another most of the time.

And you're right--being 215 is better than being 200 as a 198er; you always want to be as heavy as possible for your weight class without having a weight cut effect your performance. But ideally, you reach a point where you're 215 at 10% bodyfat; then, you will start really smashing people.

but is it reasonable to cut from 215 to 198 @ 10% bf...

KevinAlvy wrote:

but is it reasonable to cut from 215 to 198 @ 10% bf...

It depends entirely on the situation. I can make my weight cut sound worse than it was by telling you that I weighed 162 three weeks out from this meet at sub-10% bodyfat (and Janis will attest to this), but that doesn't tell the whole story. I might have weighed 162 after dinner, but my weight would fluctuate between 156-162 during the day. That was also before I manipulated the amount of water I was retaining. By Thursday night (before Friday weigh-ins), I was 156.5 after dinner, and I weighed in at 147.5 the next day after cutting only one pound in the steam room. The rest I just peed out, or it floated off.

So, if you're waking up at 215, probably not. But if you're going to bed at 215, maybe it is. The point is, you have to have a firm understanding on your situation, because the numbers don't tell the whole story.

And the bodyfat really shouldn't matter much here. When you're cutting weight, you're ideally not losing weight--you're simply cutting water weight. Fat loss should be done well in advance. I know that you know this, but it bears repeating. Dropping fat close to a meet is never a good idea, unless you have no other option.

The only way you'll know what's reasonable and what isn't is to go through it. I can weigh as much as 13-14 lbs. over my weight class a few weeks out and still make weight with absolutely no negative effect on my performance (and a 14-lb. gap, for me, is going to be a larger percentage of my bodyweight than a 17-lb. gap would be for this hypothetical 215-lb. 198er).

You know, I think what you want to remind yourself here is that if you experiment with this, you can ALWAYS go back. Despite what the diet industry would have anyone believe (and misleading/misinforming is the way the diet industry thrives, ugh, I hate it), the body is so easily manipulated/morphed in this respect, and putting on weight again would be very easy to do. You're young and it's worth it to experiment with your body to see how things might go should you want to change up your weight class again in the distant future.

I could cut to 105. I'm a little tall for the weight class, and I'm very happy with my body and how it feels around 114, but shit, I think I'd total well into elite at 105 if I could cut down to it and maintain my strength or close to it at that weight. It's not something I'm ruling out entirely for the future. That said, it IS something I find somewhat unpleasant to think about, for some reason, probably just because it feels like a massive change to me, mentally. But maybe it wouldn't be. And I may try to actually cut weight down to 105 in the next 6 months as a trial run.

If you actively experiment with this and really give shifting your composition a try, you're going to learn a lot. I can't guarantee much more about the process than that, but learning a lot is something in itself.

WG tng Incline
Warmups
225x9


Feet Up Narrow Flat
Warmups
275x3 pause
225x10 tng


Superset
Cheat Raises 40's 2x10
Mobility Work W/ Bar


Superset
RH 3x10
Forearm curls 3x

KKeough wrote:

KevinAlvy wrote:

but is it reasonable to cut from 215 to 198 @ 10% bf...

It depends entirely on the situation. I can make my weight cut sound worse than it was by telling you that I weighed 162 three weeks out from this meet at sub-10% bodyfat (and Janis will attest to this), but that doesn't tell the whole story. I might have weighed 162 after dinner, but my weight would fluctuate between 156-162 during the day. That was also before I manipulated the amount of water I was retaining. By Thursday night (before Friday weigh-ins), I was 156.5 after dinner, and I weighed in at 147.5 the next day after cutting only one pound in the steam room. The rest I just peed out, or it floated off.

So, if you're waking up at 215, probably not. But if you're going to bed at 215, maybe it is. The point is, you have to have a firm understanding on your situation, because the numbers don't tell the whole story.

And the bodyfat really shouldn't matter much here. When you're cutting weight, you're ideally not losing weight--you're simply cutting water weight. Fat loss should be done well in advance. I know that you know this, but it bears repeating. Dropping fat close to a meet is never a good idea, unless you have no other option.

The only way you'll know what's reasonable and what isn't is to go through it. I can weigh as much as 13-14 lbs. over my weight class a few weeks out and still make weight with absolutely no negative effect on my performance (and a 14-lb. gap, for me, is going to be a larger percentage of my bodyweight than a 17-lb. gap would be for this hypothetical 215-lb. 198er).

Okay I don't think I've been clear enough about where I stand so I am going to outline it

We can both agree that I am likely to do well at 198, if not better than at 220.

However you suggest that I get to 10% bodyfat @ 215 then make a cut. Which I believe is ideal, but unattainable. 215 @ 5'7 is likely beyond the natural limit of a bodybuilder, let alone someone that trains for powerlifting.

I am saying that I should be at 215 with bf in the teens because that is how I'd maximize my lean body mass for 198
If I weigh 200 @10% bf I'll have 180 lbs of LBM
If I weigh 215 @ 15% bf I'll have 182.5 of LBM, but I will also have a much larger cross sectional area. I will have better leverages for squat/bench, and be better for deadlift than I have am now (probably not better than 200 admittedly)

It might be nice to be 215 @ 10%, it's very improbable (if even possible) within half a decade.

In regards to your method. When I think of cutting I want to:
A. Maximize the spread between my weigh in of xyz and lifting weight of abc
B. Minimize if not eliminate the need to train at any bodyweight that is not abc

You have have been successful with your style of cutting, I don't suggest you change it, but I don't think it's optimal for myself. I do not like the idea of the final 3 weeks of my training to be on a deficit, because realistically if you are cutting 3 weeks out, it's not just water. You cannot stay dry for 3 weeks, nor would it ever be necessary

My main point being that if I want to get around 10%, I'll have to basically be walking as a 198, which is pointless in my opinion. I have not had any problems cutting weight, and I think it gives me an advantage. I believe I would be much better off at 215 with a higher bodyfat cutting to 198 for like 5 days.

Sorry--I should be clearer. I'm not on a deficit for those last three weeks. I bring my sodium and carbs down in a two-step process, and the first step is three weeks out; the second occurs one week out, when I drop to about 50g of carbs and no sodium while super-hydrating and taking dandelion root and caffeine.

If you believe you'll be 198 at about 10% bodyfat, then it sounds like the real issue here is that you're between two weight classes: that's a big gap to cut to 181, and it would make you, as you say, a small 198er. And yes, I agree that you'd be better off just carrying extra weight and then cutting, if the cut doesn't effect you.

I think we're on the same page here. If I were five pounds heavier, I would probably be in your position, and I'd just eat my way to being a big 165er.

babyeater wrote:

You know, I think what you want to remind yourself here is that if you experiment with this, you can ALWAYS go back. Despite what the diet industry would have anyone believe (and misleading/misinforming is the way the diet industry thrives, ugh, I hate it), the body is so easily manipulated/morphed in this respect, and putting on weight again would be very easy to do. You're young and it's worth it to experiment with your body to see how things might go should you want to change up your weight class again in the distant future.

I could cut to 105. I'm a little tall for the weight class, and I'm very happy with my body and how it feels around 114, but shit, I think I'd total well into elite at 105 if I could cut down to it and maintain my strength or close to it at that weight. It's not something I'm ruling out entirely for the future. That said, it IS something I find somewhat unpleasant to think about, for some reason, probably just because it feels like a massive change to me, mentally. But maybe it wouldn't be. And I may try to actually cut weight down to 105 in the next 6 months as a trial run.

If you actively experiment with this and really give shifting your composition a try, you're going to learn a lot. I can't guarantee much more about the process than that, but learning a lot is something in itself.

Thanks for that Janis. I'm going to be honest here. I don't really care much about the actual composition of my body beyond maximizing leverages, coefficients, and weight moved. If I could magically step on the scale right now and weigh 198 with my same composition, I wouldn't be cutting.

I am coming down in weight (April meet I weighed in at 220 and this october meet I was 215) but I am trying to figure out how to optimize things. I can guarantee I will weigh in no higher than 210 for the April 2013 meet. I think that meet will be a good indicator as to where I should move forward

sounds awesome. It's good to watch other people on the team kind of grappling with this stuff, because I really have been, particularly for this past meet. I'm long and lanky and it's PROBABLY the case that 114 is my ideal weight class, so I'm going to just try to "grow into" it by putting on small amounts of weight slowly (I don't even wake up near 114 typically). Some day, I'd like to have to cut some water weight before a meet to make weight, so that's going to mean that I need to put on lean mass for a while here, and that takes time. Semi-weekly Jimmy Jacks is going to help.

I would just cut fat until your in position to cut down to 198. So, walking around at 210 would be ideal (depending on how well you can cut once you get down to that new walking around weight).

It appears everyone wants me to become the next zyzz. I accept this challenge

Quote :

the natural limit of a bodybuilder, let alone someone that trains for powerlifting.

Quote :

It appears everyone wants me to become the next zyzz. I accept this challenge

One or the other, pal.

Nathan Poage wrote:

Quote :

the natural limit of a bodybuilder, let alone someone that trains for powerlifting.

Quote :

It appears everyone wants me to become the next zyzz. I accept this challenge

One or the other, pal.

no u

jakes on you, I'm a wizard

KevinAlvy wrote:

It appears everyone wants me to finally total Elite. I accept this challenge

Fixed.

Friday

High Bar Squat
Warmups
425x3


Reverse Hypers, Face Pulls, Decline Situps, and Curls


Sunday

High Bar Squat
Warmups
445x3


Tng Bench
Warmups
330x3


Bulgarian Split Squat
Warmups
185x5


Standing Rope Abs
2x20


Sleds
Walk Backward down and back
Walk Forward " " "
Walk Sideway " " "


Depth Jumps
2nd Bleacher 5x5


45 Degree Back Raises
5x12

KKeough wrote:

KevinAlvy wrote:

It appears everyone wants me to finally total Elite. I accept this challenge

Fixed.

ohhhh

No need to fret. Got that a while ago http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/node/19569 before they upped the standards in my weight class

Very nice! I didn't realize that. You've got a lot of improving left in you.

And after receiving a link to a certain bodybuilding.com post, I couldn't help but see that you've got people in your log telling you you're overtraining. And in my opinion, you're not; you might have to train smarter, but you can train smarter AND harder.

KKeough wrote:

Very nice! I didn't realize that. You've got a lot of improving left in you.

And after receiving a link to a certain bodybuilding.com post, I couldn't help but see that you've got people in your log telling you you're overtraining. And in my opinion, you're not; you might have to train smarter, but you can train smarter AND harder.

Yeah I agree. These guys have been following me for close to two years and I think they are half right. They are probably citing my workouts in the spring semester when I squatted/deadlifted and OHP'd all 3x a week while working FT and school FT. That's what lead me to my injuries and my lifts have pretty much stalled at that point on.

As long as I am diligent enough to eat like I used to and do the things external to lifting, I can start increasing my work capacity again. Right now the plan is to build on hypertrophy/work capacity/pain tolerance all through my assistance work, which I think will allow my injuries to heal. The next block I will start ramping the volume with the competition lifts again and hopefully get back into some oly lifting

Assistance work will be key, and I think you're right to identify it. I'm one of those types that feels just about every 'veteran' lifter should try and train every day. Now, not every day should be a high-intensity session, but there's nothing stopping you from doing preventative accessory work 3-4 times per week. In fact, I've felt better than ever since spacing out my entire workload over a complete week, rather than taking two rest days. This is also going to increase the chances that you stay healthy.

Finally, don't concern yourself with how normal people train. If you want to be an exceptional lifter, you have to increase work capacity over time so that you can one day train like one. Not everyone needs to train like Belyaev (or can, for that matter), but the ceiling is always very high.

KKeough wrote:

Finally, don't concern yourself with how normal people train.

The worst thing anybody can be is just like everybody else. Average is an insult.

KKeough wrote:

Assistance work will be key, and I think you're right to identify it. I'm one of those types that feels just about every 'veteran' lifter should try and train every day. Now, not every day should be a high-intensity session, but there's nothing stopping you from doing preventative accessory work 3-4 times per week. In fact, I've felt better than ever since spacing out my entire workload over a complete week, rather than taking two rest days. This is also going to increase the chances that you stay healthy.

Yeah. The older I am getting the less opportunity I have to be active. Aside from walking to class/lifting I am essentially sedentary. Being at least moderately active with a prehab session should be the minimum if I want to stay healthy (both injury wise and just relatively speaking). I think that is why I have seen some improvements from mobility work

Quote :

Finally, don't concern yourself with how normal people train. If you want to be an exceptional lifter, you have to increase work capacity over time so that you can one day train like one. Not everyone needs to train like Belyaev (or can, for that matter), but the ceiling is always very high.

I like my plan moving forward, I think it will set me up nicely. I have had issues with overtraining in the past, but I think I am fine now

Chris Anderson wrote:

The worst thing anybody can be is just like everybody else. Average is an insult.

At the end of the day, I still value their opinions. Sometimes you need to be real with yourself and understand what your capabilities are. They are not saying I'm average, they're saying that I might be over reaching too long, which is always possible.

It sounds badass to train like broz, but not everyone will hit their optimal lifts that way. It doesn't make them average, it just shows that people respond differently to different volumes/intensities/frequencies

It's not an elitist "be fucking awesome and go HAM everyday" macho thing, it's my motto in a way. Blindly following a crowd without thinking (or, to put it into lifting terms, following a program or buying a supplement because your jacked and tan friend said it was awesome) is a sure way to spin your wheels in life.

It wasn't really relevant to this thread or discussion, I just went off on my own little tangent there.

Chris Anderson wrote:

It's not an elitist "be fucking awesome and go HAM everyday" macho thing, it's my motto in a way. Blindly following a crowd without thinking (or, to put it into lifting terms, following a program or buying a supplement because your jacked and tan friend said it was awesome) is a sure way to spin your wheels in life.

It wasn't really relevant to this thread or discussion, I just went off on my own little tangent there.

Yeah I am pretty sure we are on the same page about this anyways

Mobility Work W/ Bar


DB Row
50 lbs 1x50


Face Pulls
3x35


Hammer Curls
45 2x


Notes: very brief